Welcome back to a wonderful steak dinner with designer and publisher Ignacy Trzewiczek. Well, I had steak. He had a potato.
This interview happened back in July 2022 at Dice Tower East, but the stories Ignacy tells about the early days of gaming in Poland are just timeless. I find it fascinating to look back because 1) Ignacy and I are now pretty good friends, but back then I did not know him. And 2) the game designs talked about have already released and left their mark for better or worse.
DTD: Wow. So, I’m really fascinated by Portal getting into these big, big IP’s now. That’s really exciting, and especially since historically Dune, the Herbert Estate, has been very reluctant.
IT: Yeah, yeah.
DTD: So, how did that go? Did you approach them and, and…?
IT: There is a company, Genuine Entertainment, who is like an agent for different IPs.
DTD: OK.
IT: And we were lucky that the CEO of this company loves Detective. And so, he being an agent for different IP’s, and he’s in contact with different people in Hollywood etcetera, etcetera, yeah?
DTD: Nice.
IT: But in his private time he plays Detective. So, he has at home his Detective game. He looks at these IPs that he has networking with. And he says, “Let’s make a connection.” And he set up a meeting with me, asked me if I’m interested in doing some detective games in the IP. And I said, “Why are you even asking, right? I’m a huge fan of Dune.” And we signed the contract.
DTD: [laughs] It sounded like you were.
IT: Yeah, so. With Dune, this is the novel of my childhood. So, it is like a very important novel for me, and when he said, “I can give you rights, I can get you rights for Dune. We can do a Dune Detective. Are you up for that?” I went, “Yeeesssss, I am.” And started working.
[drinks delivered]
DTD: Thank you.
IT: On some level it is a surreal, you know, experience. To write a story in the novel that you are reading as a kid.and loved.
DTD: Yeah. Of course.
IT: And now, as an adult person, you are doing an official game. We are literally sending script to the Herberts.
DTD: Really?!?
Frank Herbert was the creator and author of the first 5 Dune books until his death in 1986. His son Brian Herbert wrote several followup novels, and helps control the IP and estate through Herbert Properties LLC. Herbert Properties is run by family members, both children and spouses of Frank.
IT: They approve it, and say “Yes. It’s OK.” And we go, “Wow. They say its OK.”
DTD: Wow, I was under the impression that the Herbert Estate was not involved at all. It was just from the movie.
IT: We had everything. It goes to Legendary [Pictures], and the Legendary contacts us, will help us. That there’s no stupid ideas for the plot. So, it is still in the lands for the book. Because it is an official game.
DTD: Wow.
IT: So yeah, we got the official green light, yeah. This is like… So, for me it was super, super nice. The writer, Przemysław Rymer, who is the writer for the plot.
DTD: Yeah?
Przemysław Rymer was invoved in writing not only Detective and Dune, but also Vienna Connection.
IT: He’s my friend from the college.
DTD: Oh, nice.
IT: And I remember I invited him to my office. He’s sitting at the table. And I say, “Przemysław, we are doing Dune.” And he said, “What do you mean?” “I mean, we are writing Dune. THE Dune.” And he said, “How?” I said, “We signed the contract, we have rights to Dune. Dude, we are making a Dune.” And because he is, as me, a super nerd… He loves the IP.
DTD: Wow.
IT: And we’re, like, smiling to each other, because we are very close friends from the college time. And none of us, when we were playing role playing games in the college, would imagine that, as adults, we were going to do an official Dune game.
Spoiler: We are leading up to the design of Dune: House Secrets, released in 2021.
DTD: No!
IT: And he did an amazing, amazing story. That is so rooted in the novel, in the storyline and everything.
DTD: I can tell that the two of you really love the books, and I do too. I read them over and over and over when I was young, mostly because I couldn’t understand them the first couple times I read them.
I have often stated that Dune is a remarkably good book, but the author assumes you have already read it and already know the story. The world building is so immersive, there is no frame of reference. Once someone tells you what Dune is about, Dune is great.
IT: I said it. I don’t know if you watched it. I recorded a vlog about how my first introduction to Dune, to the books.
DTD: OK.
IT: So, it was 90’s. And Dune was published in Poland, the book. Thick book, right? It was very expensive.
DTD: OK.
Communism in Poland fell on June 4, 1989. Poland’s “Solidarity” trade union won an overwhelming victory in partially free elections, leading to the peaceful fall of communism.
IT: And I’m from the family that was not very rich. I would not call us poor. But you… modest life. The word is modest life?
DTD: Yeah. That’s fine. Yeah.
Hostess: Everything OK here?
DTD: Yeah, very good. Thank you.
IT: So, believe it or not, back then in Poland, buying a book was quite expensive for my family, for me.
DTD: Wow, OK.
IT: This is the times. Still, Poland… It is after the Russians go out for the Poland. Huge economic changes, everybody’s poor. You know, we’re getting to the Western culture. Lots of changes.
DTD: Of course.
The problem with transitioning from Communism, where no one theoretically needs money, to Capitalism… Is that no one starts with money.
IT: People are losing jobs or getting jobs. A lot of things, yes. And we basically lead a modest life. But I knew from… Because I was a nerd. This is the famous Dune. I never read it, but I know it’s good.
DTD: You had heard of it.
IT: So, I went to my parents, “Can you buy me this book?” My mother says, “It’s a very expensive book. We don’t know.” “Mother, please. I need to have this book. It’s very important.” She went with me to the bookstore. She looks at it. “Will you really read this book?” “Mom, yes. I will really read it.”
Host: May I take that away sir?
DTD: Oh, thank you very much.
Host: You’re welcome, Sir.
IT: And she said she will think about it, and then she bought me the book.
DTD: That’s so awesome.
I am very moved by the continued unquestioning support Ignacy receved from his parents for arguably crazy dreams.
IT: So that was like a huge present, a big present. Like these days, it is a birthday present. It was a huge present, very expensive for us. But I read the book, and I will tell you – it was as amazing as I hoped. It was dreamed a gift, that was as good as I wanted it to be. So, this is… that’s why it’s so important for me, from my childhood. And now, doing this game as the official one is like… a beautiful closing chapter.
DTD: Yeah.
IT: As a kid, it was a dream to even have this book. And now I get to… it’s just amazing.
DTD: Wow.
IT: Big stuff. And I showed the game to my mom, and said, “Do you remember the book?” I’m here right now with the game. And I have this book with me. I have this book in my collection. I kept for the whole of my life.
DTD: The first one that you got.
IT: It’s very pale right now, after all these years. No, no colors almost on the cover. But I have it. Because it was the book from my childhood.
DTD: Yep. Yeah, I have the first copy of The Hobbit that my parents bought me. That was also very important to me. So did I… I seem to remember when you first released your press release about it, that there were going to be three.
IT: Yeah.
The press release went out in January 2021 during Portal Con.
DTD: Still gonna be 3 [games]?
IT: At this point, due to different delays, and not amazing feedback on the first Dune, we decided with Legendary that we will do 2 games.
To date only the single Dune: House Secrets game has been released or announced. Additionally, the contract with Legendary pictures ends on July 31, 2024. And unfortunately during Portal Con 2024 it was announced the third game was cancelled.
DTD: To match the 2 movies?
IT: Yes. And then we’ll see what happens. So we have a script for the third one, but maybe there will be no demand on the market. So then we’ll just cut it. The second game is ready. We wrote it, we designed it, we playtested it. So, it’s ready. It’s waiting for the new movie, as I said in the seminar.
DTD: Right.
Dune Part 2 was delayed several times but finally had a cinematic release in March 2024. The original Denis Villeneuve Dune was released in October 2021.
IT: And when it is released, either we will say, “OK, that’s that decent.” Either we get the green light from the Legendary. And the fans, is more people than we had before.
DTD: Yeah.
IT: Because the first didn’t have as much good as I wanted, as I dreamed for. So now with Legendary, we want to be very casual. Because it makes no sense to, you know, to print the game if there’s no demand. We have to be very, very careful about that.
DTD: Sure.
Dune House Secrets was unfortunately not critically received, with a 5.1 rating on BGG.
IT: We’ll see.
DTD: And I know that the movies had a lot of issue as well. The plan was to do multiple movies – at least three.
As of April 2024, Denis Villeneuve was in talks to direct a third Dune feature film. Warner Bros has announced an “untitled Denis Villeneuve film” releasing December 18, 2026.
IT: They were going to do it year after year, with all the…
DTD: Yeah. But then, pandemic. And when the movies went straight to television, the company was not happy.
IT: Yeah.
There was an agreement between Warner Brothers and HBO during the pandemic that all Warner distributed films would release on HBO at the same time as a theatrical release. Legenday and Dune sat at the end of this agreement, and there were … disagreements.
DTD: There might have been a few lawsuits involved.
IT: The COVID made it a little bit difficult to work with this. All the delays and changing the timelines, and we were learning – “Move this and change this. Don’t market right now, because…” Like, a lot of adjusting. So we had this initial plan of marketing and release and everything.
DTD: Yeah.
IT: And then we get this feedback from Hollywood, Legendary, yes. We had to adjust our plan. You have to adjust your plan.
DTD: But I remember your game came out quite a bit before the movie.
IT: It was super lucky that with all those delays, we ended up with this situation, that our game was just before, just after the movie. But it was not planned initially, it was a different plan. But it ended up good for me. That was good.
DTD: Yeah, it was the first Dune product, really. So, we were…
Dune: House Secrets delivered in September 2021 after a pre-order campaign through Portal Games in July.
IT: Dune Imperium was first, and then we were the second game for the movie. Yeah. We’ll see. I’m waiting for the sequel for the second game. I hope it will be good. We made so much, we did so much work. I’m very proud of it. Come to fans to play and see.
DTD: Yeah, you’re saying that there’s a book of choices, like a choose your own adventure book.
IT: There’s a new book. All new mechanisms, a few surprises hidden there. I can say because we’re just small, small, smaller. There is a scene when you talk with the ambassador in Arrakin. And we made it as a game book, so you talk and it’s like – “if you tell, do you want to tell him this or you want to tell him this?” And it… And you know, it will matter what you tell him. You are thinking, “which words we should use?” Let’s say that now he reacts that way. What do you know? So it is like a very subtle discussion with this non player character.
DTD: Yeah.
IT: Because you know that he knows a lot of things, and you want to be very, very cautious what you say, what you tell him. So there is. action scenes in this choose your own adventure, but it’s also action scene by the words and sentences, because it is ambassador. So, there’s a couple of the nice things that I can’t wait to play. Played and give me feedback if they like it. Play testers like it. Play testers were discussing, “Don’t tell him that. We cannot tell him that. Let’s tell him good.” It was funny. With players arguing what they can do, because they know that he has access to many informations, and maybe they should not share more with him?
DTD: [laughs] Do you have permission to do other games based on Dune? Or is it just Detective?
Dune Robinson Crusoe. Survive the desert. Would be amazing.
IT: No. We have, contracted for story driven games on the engine of Detective, and I have to say, in my opinion, this license is very well managed. Like, there is Dune Imperium for euro gamers. There is Dune: House of Secrets for story driven games. There’s a Dune strategy game. Like, different companies are doing what they’re the best at. And I think that the owner of this IP, the owner of this license, is doing a nice job choosing different partners for different types of games. And I appreciate them.
DTD: That’s good to hear. That’s cool. So then, how did you get Batman [Everybody Lies]? Is it the same?
IT: Yeah. We did Dune with this company, and [then asked] “What’s next?” They said, “Ignacy, do you like Batman?”
Who doesn’t like Batman? I mean besides The Joker?
DTD: That sounds so exciting, especially since you said they gave you freedom to do whatever you want.
IT: This is… I was really surprised. So, we were negotiating and asking what we can achieve, as Batman. And then… Because I’m a huge Batman nerd. I have so many comic books of Batman, is my favorite superhero. So, I say “Can we do Gotham Central?” “Yes.” Can we do Batman Year One?” “Yes.” “Can we do Batman Year 100?” “Yes.” “So, technically, we can…” “Yes, you can do whatever you want.” “… OK, I like it. And can we do our own?” “Yes, you can do your own.” So, they want new stories. What DC needs – new stories for Batman. So, players are excited. They love the lore. So as long as we are doing interesting stories, they are fine. And we can do stories. We can do these stories. So, we send out scenarios, everything accepted. Very proud. And players who played the Batman already make fun of me, that it would be a good comic book. “Are you planning to make it a comic book?”
DTD: [laughs]
IT: “I’m doing games. Let DC…” They can make a comic book if they want. But the story is good. The story is interesting.
DTD: But then they have to ask Ignacy for the rights to the game… [laughs]
You heard it here first – Ignacy the comic book writer.
IT: Exactly. But this is a good… In comic book industry, they’re having these limited series, like 6 episodes, right?
DTD: Right.
IT: So this game is like a limited series. There are three scenarios, one big story chopped into three chapters. So, you treat it as a limited series and have fun seeing how it develops, with all the characters inside the story.
DTD: And you did a prologue for it, just as a tutorial to get people into the game, and…
IT: We learned that with Dune. So, we started with Dune. When we were playtesting Dune. And because it is Dune, we play tested all those players who didn’t play Detective first. Because we knew that we are going to the mass market. We’re going to new customers.
DTD: Yeah.
The idea of a small, easy prologue is the board game equivalent of a demo in video games. Get the players hooked, then offer them a bigger story.
IT: And when we throw with them the Dune Chapter One… [gestures confusion]
DTD: They got lost.
IT: So we are like, “OK. We need to do a prologue.” So, we did a prologue for the Dune, and then we were discussing with DC Warner Bros, we said, “We think we will do… We signed the contract for three chapters, but we will do a prologue. These additional bonus, we do a product, because so many people who just love comic books, never played any board games, have no clue what the Ignacy Trzewiczek is. They see a Batman, they buy it. Give them a prologue. Let them easy step into the game. Because it is one issue with Detective games. When you play your first game of Robinson Crusoe, you screw things up. You play again. In Detective you play the first chapter…
DTD: You can’t play it again. You have to get it right.
This is the major problem with story driven, solve a case tabletop games, including escape room games. There is no second play if you get the rules wrong. The ruleset needs to be tight and clear.
IT: So, your first game has to be good. So, let them do all the mistakes in the prologue.
DTD: Yeah.
IT: Get adjusted to the system. And then enjoy the actual game, chapter 1 to 3.
DTD: I was… I was so fascinated with that original Detective. [to waiter] Ohh, sorry about that. Thank you so much.
The waiter was valiantly trying to take away dishes while I wildly gesticulated during my story.
Waiter: No problem
DTD: So that original Detective, it hurt my brain. It was so detailed, and a little long, and it was just crazy.
Maybe I would have done better playing the Polish version.
Waiter: I will not remove, I’m just adjusting.
DTD: That’s fine. Thank you. That’s wonderful.
The waiter had moved my digital recorder, and was very concerned I would think he was throwing it away.
IT: So the writer for the story for Detective, Przemysław Rymer, …
DTD: Yeah.
IT: In college, he ran Call of Cthulhu campaigns for me.
DTD: Oh, in the role-playing days.
Call of Cthulhu is an early role playing game in HP Lovecraft’s victorian occult world, created by Chaosium in 1981. Ignacy has previously talked about how it was one of the first RPGs to enter Poland.
IT: Yeah. And he wrote, he ran these Call of Cthulhu campaigns in the modern times setting. So not 1920’s but modern.
DTD: Wow, OK.
IT: And, so this is same. He was buying a daily newspaper. And for every game session, we had a newspaper. And he was making up stories based on the real things that were happening in our city.
DTD: Wow.
IT: So, I remember till today, and it’s from my college days. So it is 30 years ago – there was an accident while building a road in our city. So, the article about this accident, that some worker fell down something, broke something, whatever. And now we are investigators, because it was a Cthulhu theme. Because it was Cthulhu, something happened.
DTD: Because that was part of your story.
Detective is full of real world incidents that integrate into the story. The players are encouraged to use the internet to look up events and places.
IT: Yeah. So, he was coming up every week, every weekend, we had a new story. And it was somehow connected with the actual events happening in our city. He is that brilliant.
DTD: Wow.
IT: So, 20 years later…
DTD: I actually. I was talking about this with some people, that it’s ARG – Alternate Reality.
In Alternate Reality Gaming, the game is interspersed with real world stories, elements, and components. And the mix of fantasy gaming world with real world anchors makes the story incredible immersive.
Trivia time – the creator of the ARG campaign around the movie AI was Jordan Weisman, founder of FASA roleplaying company, WizKids, and many other game companies.
IT: Yep. Something like that, yeah.
DTD: That it’s so powerful when you mix real reality into your game. It’s almost…
IT: Well, we were, we were doing investigation and suddenly, because of Call of Cthulhu… We go to a cemetery. We know the cemetery, it is in our city. We went there as kids. Bringing the real city, our city into…
DTD: Yeah!
IT: And having this, this writer, this game master, who was coming out with these stories based on the newspaper, insane.
DTD: That’s fascinating.
IT: 20 years later, I called him. “Przemysław, I need a story for my new game. You write it.” Because I knew that he will write an amazing story. Because he was the best game master I ever had in my life, yeah.
I have known some amazing game masters in my day. They would write some very cool stories on the fly.
DTD: Wow. I was just really fascinated with Detective, that I could search out real life events, and real life background…
IT: Now you can understand. Because he was writing based on the newspapers. Now he was writing based on the actual facts.
DTD: Actual things, yeah.
IT: This how he creates the stories. He takes the real facts and makes the story around them.
DTD: It was, it was so well done, and so detailed.
IT: Yeah. Yeah.
DTD: If anything, that might have been, you know, a little bit of a negative. That it was so long and so detailed, that it… It hurt.
IT: Yeah, yeah.
DTD: I remember playing the first episode, and we were discussing and talking about it, and arguing. And we decided, “OK, we’re done. We know what happened.” We got everything wrong. [laughs]
Or maybe I am just a bit too old and feebleminded. Could be any one. I remember playing the first Detective story, and being convinced I knew all the answers. Then at the reveal, the game asked question about people and events I never even knew occurred.
IT: The first prototype he gave me, the case number one and case number two in the game… In his prototype, it was case number one. And we were play testing. After five hours, I said “no, no, no. Przemysław, I need to chop it in half…”
DTD: Smaller.
IT: “Forgive me, but we’re insane. We are chopping it down.” So for him, it was one case, but I made it 2 cases. Yeah, but it’s an amazing, amazing, multi layered story. 3 timelines. He is… He is insane.
DTD: Wow. Well, I am, I’m very impressed with the writing, with the structure of it. It’s an amazing system. And with prologues in them now, that’s fantastic. Because that’s what I’ve always kind of felt board games need, is… You know, they follow behind video games. And video games… Usually you just start playing. There’s no instructions anymore.
It is often said that tabletop games follow behind video games. And video games ditched the instruction books a very long time ago.
IT: Yep.
DTD: We’re just a little behind with that.
IT: Yeah. Michał Oracz, my friend, he’s obsessed with this concept of “open the game and play”. And he tries to do it in his games, sometimes. But it’s very difficult.
DTD: I think we’re very close. I’ve seen so many, so many European games try to do it. And they come close.
IT: [The Adventures of] Robin Hood from Michael Menzel.
Michael Menzel did both the game design and the art for Robin Hood – a real pick up and play family adventure. The game was nominated for the Spiel des Jahres in 2021.
DTD: Yeah. And, I mean, some are more successful than others, but I’m not sure it’s been perfected yet.
IT: Not yet, no.
DTD: And you got, you know, you got very simple games. You know, the Fabled Fruit games, and things like that. And [Robinson] Crusoe… I mean, basically you learn it by doing it wrong.
Fabled Fruit by Friedemann Friese was a wonderful experiment in minimal instructions. A deck of cards, simply put it on the table, read a few words, and start playing. The game changed and gained complexity as you played through the deck.
IT: [laughs] Yeah, this is the biggest, biggest problem of our industry. You buy a cell phone, and you use it. You buy a board game, and you read the rulebook.
DTD: Yeah. Well, I also kind of like the idea of having someone teach you, having experts paid to teach you how to play the game you’ve heard about. If you… If Portal wants to hire someone to teach how to play games… Who knows zero Polish… I’m your man.
I am a very good games teacher, although not in your native language.
IT: Yeah, but you’re exactly right. The experience, someone to teach you the game. It is so much better experience for you than struggling with the rule book. Even the best rule book.
DTD: Yup.
Quite the industry has emerged over the years on comfortable ways to learn how to play board games. Some people enjoy reading rulebooks and are quite good at it. Many more are taught by their friends or watch instructional videos online. There’s even an interactive tutorial company now, Dized that uses very specialized animations to teach games turn by turn.
IT: You have to figure it out. And someone who teaches you, tells you, advises you. This is so, so comfortable.
DTD: Oh yeah. Robinson Crusoe was one of the first heavy board games I really, really started playing. And I played it wrong so many times, but loved it every time.
IT: And this matters.
Apparently, according to Ignacy, playing a game properly matters.
DTD: I always wanted to go back and try it again. I went through several sets of friends. I would play it with one set of friends, they would go “No. We are… no… You messed that up. We’re not doing that again.” So, I’d get another set of friends. “Here’s a new game. I’ve never played it. We should try it. But I think that you really need to start collecting wood now.”
IT: [laughing] Yeah. So, at the conventions, I cheat.
DTD: [laughs]
IT: When I teach. Yeah, when I teach the game. On purpose. I don’t explain them the weather rules, so they are not prepared for the weather.
DTD: Wow. Just to see what happens?
IT: And I know what happens.
DTD: Oh yeah, I know you know.
Such an evil man. I had no idea.
IT: So yeah, so when the demo starts, I tell them you will die in the 7th round. You will see. And I don’t explain to them the weather. They play the game, try to gather the wood, try to build the shelter. When the weather hits [claps]… And they are dead in the seventh round. And I say, “I told you.” It’s good for me, because we at the convention, we need to make as many demos as possible. So we need… To discover the game is very hard. You get, you get dead in the 7th round. “Next group, please.”
DTD: That is mean.
IT: Yeah, but that is a pure Robinson experience in my opinion.
DTD: But I have to tell you, I have had several people come up to me and say, “Ignacy is so smart, he told me exactly when we were gonna die. He just walked by the table and said, you’re gonna die in this round.”
IT: [laughing] Because I cheated!
DTD: Now I know the secret, and I’m gonna publish it. I still remember going to this convention, and you demoed Cry Havoc for me.
IT: Oh yeah, yes.
I believe it was Dice Tower East 2016. It was the first time I met Ignacy, and now I co-host a podcast with him and I am writing up an interview with the man. Surreal.
DTD: That was the first time we met. And I was so fascinated with it. It was the first game I had played, where combat was turned into logical independent steps. And it really worked for me.
IT: I’m surprised… Yeah, I love the system. I absolutely love the Cry Havok system. I’m surprised not many games picked up this solution, because you can easily steal it to other games. We will play with this. Like we love in the company so much, the system, that we will do another game with that at some point for sure. And I think it’s brilliant.
DTD: I thought it was great, and even the world was so fascinating, that strange world. I loved that there were three players who start with nothing, and try to work their way in. And one player who starts with everything, and just loses it over time. That I had not seen before either. That was great.
IT: It is a very good game.
I just need to comment here that the alien species in Cry Havoc, the Trog, really remind me of the Cavity Creeps, creatures from a 1970s toothpaste commercial. “WE MAKE HOLES IN TEETH. WE MAKE HOLES IN TEETH.”
DTD: But, I think Rising Sun kind of took that combat system.
IT: No, this is a story for you.
DTD: Uh oh.
IT: And it happened here, at the Dice Tower Con. And it was a year later. Eric Lang catches me. He says, “Ignacy, I hate you.”
DTD: [laughs] Uh Oh.
IT: “I played Cry Havok. You have a very similar system to what I have in Rising Sun, and everybody now will say that I stole it from you. I have it. I have it already. And nobody will believe me.”
DTD: [laughing]
Both Cry Havoc and Rising Sun have combat systems where killing opponents, taking over territory, and capturing opponents are independant controlled actions. Players bid in secret for all 3 aspects, and they happen independantly in order.
IT: And I said, “Yes. Nobody will believe you. That’s true.” So, he had it earlier, the same time. Like we… But Rising Sun was published a year later. So, everybody thinks that he played Cry Havok and he stole it. But Eric, he was here at Dice Tower Con, he was yelling at me, “Ignacy I hate you.”
DTD: I wish I had asked him about that. I had dinner with Eric, an interview like this, not that long ago.
Come back next time for more great Ignacy stories – tales of unpredictable sales, and the origin stories of Imperial Settlers, 51st State, Empires of the North, or maybe all of them. I mean, Ignacy is famous for only designing three games, but doing each one multiple times. His words, not mine…