Welcome back to an interview dinner with Portal Games founder and designer Ignacy Trzewiczek, that I was lucky enough to hold during Dice Tower East 2022. Ignacy was describing the gaming scene in post-communist Poland around 1991; Role Playing Games were heard of, magazines were starting to come out, but there were no games as of yet.
IT: There’s no roleplaying games. There’s just magazines about them. Because the publisher decides that he tries to introduce role playing games to Poland. And he starts with the magazine. I buy the magazine. And many people of my generation, we have no clue what we are reading. This is a funny thing, like we are buying magazine, we are reading about role-playing games. We never played them. We don’t have them. We don’t know what it is. But it’s very interesting. Fascinating.
DTD: But you want them.
One of the great draw of media magazines for me has always been reading about games or video games or movies that haven’t come out yet. This sounds like the ultimate version – reading about a genre and industry that does not exist.
IT: Yeah. And this publisher of this magazine figured out that his readers have no clue what this magazine is, but they are still keep buying that. And the 7th issue, is more than a year from the first issue, he publishes in the magazine, inside the magazine, a mini role playing game, so we all can actually finally see a role playing game, and start playing.
DTD: Wow.
IT: So it took… For the whole year, he was selling the magazine, and we were buying not knowing what we were reading about. But it was fascinating world that we wanted to, you know, to touch, to understand.
DTD: Wow!
The magazine in question most likely was Magia i Miecz, or “Magic and Sword”, started in 1993.
IT: And it was my high school. So in this period, teenagers like… dive in.
DTD: Wow. So… There was no way to get any of these games that he was talking about?
IT: There was literally like, I guess, 20 people in different cities in Poland who had role playing games that they imported, because their parents were ambassador, or because their father…
DTD: Wow.
IT: And the interesting, interesting, fact. This mini role-playing game published in this magazine was written by Andrzej Sapkowski, writer of The Witcher.
The roleplaying game in question is probably Oko Yrrhedesa, The Eye of Yrrhedes. Very rough rules first appeared in the magazine Fenix in 1990, then in more detail within Magia i Miecz in 1994. Oko Yrrhedesa was published on its own in 1995 with a second edition in 1999.
DTD: Alright!
IT: Because, before he became a writer, before he became a full-time writer, he was working sales, so he was working internationally. And he was fan of science fiction. So, being outside Poland, he bought couple of role-playing games. So he knew what this is. So he wrote this mini role playing game to introduce it in Poland. So, like, it was crazy time. And I say, I wrote a piece about that in Polish, in Poland. These days, kids who have Googled, and they have everything. They will never have such a discovery. Like, I was buying a magazine, and there was no “Googling”. It was… everything I had was these pages, and I was trying to figure out what I was reading about. And it was like, really like discovering something absolutely new and unknown and fascinating.
DTD: Yes.
IT: And no Google that will explain it. No YouTube, no.
DTD: No, no. Reminds me of… like the video game industry in America in the 70’s and in early 80’s. It’s just the magazines. That’s all we had.
This is the closest comparison I have, a pre-internet world. Where I would type in code for computer games published in magazines. Although Ignacy is tslking about a pre-game, pre-internet world.
Waiter: Any questions we may have about the menu and anything that is here?
DTD: No, I think I want everything. I think it might hurt me, though.
Waiter: Yes, it might. It might just.
I am not one to back down from a challenge.
DTD: [laughs] Are you ready, Ignacy?
IT: I’m ready, yes.
DTD: OK. So, you recommend getting a few sides, and…?
Waiter: It depends on how hungry you are.
DTD: I’m very hungry.
Corey Thompson does not mince words.
Waiter: OK. That being said, what is a few sides? What is a few sides?
DTD: [laughs] I think maybe, maybe we’ll go for three.
Waiter: OK, let’s hear what you’re having, then we could go about that.
DTD: OK. I would love to have the lamb chops.
Waiter: That’s a very good choice.
DTD: And… Oh, I’m gonna be a pig. I would like to start with the French Onion soup.
Although onion soups are timeless, and onions themselves often associated with peasant fare, the modern French Onion Soup dates to the 19th century in the markets around Les Halles Paris.
Waiter: Good choice as well. It pairs very nicely with the lamb chop.
DTD: Yeah. And I know that I would love the broccoli.
Waiter: OK, you don’t necessarily need another side, outside of broccoli.
DTD: OK. Do you… do you like broccoli?
IT: So, so… I can eat. But not a big fan. So I will be OK.
I think this was polite polish for “no.”
DTD: Pick something you like. I’ve already got a lot.
IT: I do not know exactly what is this, but I will try this.
Waiter: The Lyonnaise potato?
IT: Yes.
Pommes de terre sautées à la lyonnaise are potatoes, boiled and then sliced and shallow-fried, served together with fried onions. Most recipes deriving from Lyons are cooked with fried onions.
Waiter: Potatoes in a hot skillet, but after it’s been cooked in a brine, onions, olive oil, salt and pepper.
IT: OK. Yes. Yep.
DTD: Sounds good.
IT: And because I’m not that hungry as you. So…
DTD: [laughs]
IT: And mushrooms. And I will be fine with that.
DTD: Do you want an entrée?
IT: Just that.
DTD: Are you sure?
IT: Just to remind you, it’s like 4:00 AM for my stomach. Mentally, I’m OK, but…
Waiter: Some mushrooms and lyonnaise potatoes.
Ignacy often jokes about being very Slavic, and in turn I sometimes will comment on how Slavic he is acting. But a meal of potatoes, onions, and mushrooms. This is very Slavic.
IT: Yes. And can I have a hot tea? Do you have a tea? A regular one – English breakfast or something like that. So, tea for my stomach and two things and I will be very happy.
DTD: Are you sure?
IT: Yeah, I’m serious. Yeah.
DTD: All right, all right.
Waiter: You’re gonna be up all night, playing?
IT: No, after this dinner, I will go to bed. Because I am from Poland, I am on jet lag and I’m a little bit unconscious. But still conscious, but…
Waiter: OK, would you like me to bring the sides when I bring the entrée, or would you like me to bring it in between, like one when he’s having his appetizer, one…?
IT: Can I have… Yeah, with him, yes.
DTD: Thank you very much.
Waiter: Pleasure is all mine.
IT: [to Waiter] The tea as fast as possible. I need my tea.
Waiter: Absolutely.
Ignacy does love his tea. And I’m sure the caffeine is an absolute necessity for jet lag.
Poland currently ranks #11 in the highest per capita tea consumption in the world, with 1.00 kg (2.20 lb) per person. The United States is at #36 with one quarter as much consumed. Turkey leads the pack with 3.16 kg (6.96 lb).
DTD: Ah! Forcing you to eat at 4:00 in the morning. But I… when I had dinner with Ode [Andreas Odendahl], it was very similar. We had to find a time on zoom, and so he was in the middle of the night, and I was in the middle of the day, and…
IT: So, yes, with jet lag, it’s like this few steps of adjusting to the situation.
DTD: Yeah.
IT: And I’m hungry in a very different moments than daylight.
DTD: Well, you, you’re getting good at it at this point. You’re traveling all the time.
IT: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I had two years break. Because of the COVID, right?
DTD: Oh, yeah.
This interview was held right “after” COVID hit, in July 2022. We were under the impression it was all over at this point. Good thing we were right.
IT: But now when I come back to…
DTD: Oh. You’re out of practice.
IT: Yeah.
DTD: So, you said that the role-playing magazine was really inspiring you. was in the 90’s. Was the invasion of the German board games, did that come into Poland at about the same time it did in the US. Because that was about the same time?
IT: The history of the whole board game scene in Poland is very weird. I’m involved in every single part of that, and I don’t want to sound cocky or whatever, but…
DTD: No, no, I know this.
It might have been a leading question.
IT: So, what’s happening? In the 90’s you have this magazine. In 1994, there is a Warhammer role playing game published. In 1995, Call of Cthulhu published. 1995, Cyberpunk 2020 published. And suddenly we have a lot of role playing games published. No board games, whatsoever.
DTD: Wow.
IT: We have Games Workshop being distributed. Very expensive for us Poles, but it is something new that we didn’t know before, so there is a miniature games. Only Warhammer battle. Lots of role-playing games, and no board games.
DTD: Wow.
IT: And the whole generation of us. We play role-playing games, role-playing games, role-playing games. And those who can afford, play miniature games from the Games Workshop.
DTD: It’s such a different order than here.
IT: And there is no board games whatsoever. Board games are only this mass market crap – Monopolies, etcetera. But no actual real games.
Monopoly is a multiplayer roll and write economic real estate title originally designed by Elizabeth J. Magie Phillips as “The Landlord’s Game“, and questionably published by Parker Brothers in 1935.
DTD: Right, right.
IT: And the role-playing game scene goes up and up and up. And the gaming… “You are a gamer? Yes.” That means you’re playing role-playing games. There’s no board games. And then… And I’m atheist. But something that, if I’m not atheist, I would believe it was a sign of the god. Because during the Christmas Eve, out of the random, I designed a board game. Having no single board game at home, having not a single board game. It is like, seriously, I don’t know what happened. I was browsing a video game magazine, with the reviews of video games…
DTD: Yeah.
Waiter: May I ask – Limes or lemons? Would you like any hot tea with your hot tea? Do you like any milk? Cream?
IT: No, no, just regular. Regular tea makes me happy. Thank you, sir. Yes, sugar is nice.
DTD: Sugar is wonderful. Yeah.
I agree with The Archies. Oh Sugar Sugar. Oh Honey Honey.
IT: And then browsing this video game magazine, and I see a print screen of the video game, and I’m, “this would be a cool board game”. I know nothing about board game, like how did I get this thought? And during the Christmas, I created a prototype. I brought it to the company, showed it to Michał Oracz, and I told him, “I can do board games”. What? What an idea?
Michał Oracz, long time employee at Portal, is the designer of such classics as Neuroshima Hex, Cry Havoc, This War of Mine, and Etherfields.
DTD: OK, So, what company did you bring it to? This was you already?
IT: Yeah, we were… We were doing, it was 2001. So, we were two years in the in the market.
DTD: What were you… were you selling just role-playing games at that point?
IT: Yes. Yes.
DTD: OK. OK.
Spoiler – More on the early role playing business at Portal is coming up later.
IT: I showed it to Michał Oracz. He said, “This is funny.” But we still… We called it as a joke. Something stupid Ignacy came up with. I don’t know why? What for? But in February… this is like Christmas, January and February. In February was the biggest convention in Poland, in Krakow, the biggest.
DTD: Wow.
IT: And I always was the marketing guy. And I said, “Michał, we are doing something funny.”
DTD: You sell things very well.
IT: So we took this prototype, we put it in the envelope like a gray-ish envelope.
A bread service of lovely Kasha Sourdough was presented to the table.
DTD: So, you had the role-playing company. You had never played any modern board games.
IT: I had no board games at home. I haven’t played.
DTD: And you went to a role-playing convention?
IT: Yep. With a board game.
DTD: With a board game in a bag. [laughs]
IT: And conventions in Poland back then, all of them were held in the schools.
DTD: Right.
IT: It was easy to rent a school for the weekend, and all the gamers were there at schools and playing role playing games.
DTD: They knew where the school was, and yeah. Wow.
Several of the large Polish board game conventions, most notable Pionek, are still held in schools.
IT: So, I took this envelope in one of the classrooms, and I just pinch it into the wall, wrote “surprise”, and I left it. And people who were in this room, they were confused. “What is this?” Open, start playing, and then become like… Being viral, before Internet. There’s a gossip, and rumor at the convention, that in this particular classroom something very weird, yes? And it’s very funny. If you’re playing, people coming to this room, checking out, playing this game. And I’m pretending I don’t know what it is. On Sunday, we do reveal with Michał Oracz, my friend. He worked at Portal Games back then. This is like, “Ah, this game is called Machina. Ignacy invented it. Did you like it?”. And everyone was like, “Yeah! Awesome, awesome, awesome. Publish it.” I go, “No, no. It was just a prank. It was a joke.”
DTD: [laughs]
Ignacy famously posted his game Machina during the Krakon Convention around 2000.
IT: “It was a convention thing.” “You have to publish this amazing thing! Publish it!”
DTD: See what you started?
IT: And we come home with Michał in the car. And we didn’t know what to do, how to publish a board game. But maybe it was a way to earn some money. And we came back to the office, we started thinking how to do it. How to publish it. We had no how to do it, but we said “let’s do it.” And we published this game, just called Machina, between 1000 copies. And it sold out. Immediately. Massive hit.
DTD: Wow. So, did you…?
IT: In a market with no other board games, like no competitors, no traditional playing board games. Everybody’s a role-playing gamer. And it was a Munchkin style game. It was funny, stupid, destroying each other’s things, etcetera, etcetera.
It does seem that many designers’ first titles are simple, “take that” titles in the style of Munchkin.
DTD: Wow.
IT: We sold out. And that, that’s interesting. What happened? Do we understand that? We don’t understand that, but we like the money. What happened?
DTD: Wow. Do it again…
IT: But… But this is the point. I was so stupid. And I was so not treating it more than a prank, that we didn’t do reprint, and we didn’t start doing anything else. We got back to doing role playing games. Like we, we treat as a prank, it worked well. We earned some money, and that’s it. And months passed.
DTD: That’s so strange. So, did you know about Essen and that whole culture at all?
IT: No, no, no. So, a year later I am at my wife’s parents’ family dinner. Super boring. My wife is enjoying. I’m not enjoying whatsoever. I’m super bored. And once again, and I had with me All Flesh Must Be Eaten role playing game. The rulebook. They are doing some bullshit family stuff, and I’m just reading role-playing game.
A typical family get together. Boredom and zombie role playing.
DTD: OK.
IT: And once again [kazam noise]. I could do a card game with zombies. And I’m starting literally designing it at this family dinner, and I have these notes with me till today. Like, I kept them. And I designed the whole game during this family dinner. Came back to the office, “Michał, I have another game. Let’s do another prank.” We did it. We published it. It became a massive hit. And then we were printing. “OK, this is Money. It works. This is something very, very interesting.”
The game discussed is Zombiaki, published in 2003. Zombiaki had four versions, then there was a sequel, titled Zombiaki II: Attack on Moscow.
DTD: OK. Then you realized…
IT: And slowly we started doing more games. I started learning about the board games. I bought my first modern board game. I googled Essen and 2005, I was attending.
DTD: But we were already into the 2000s, at that point. Wow.
IT: And it started. It started the whole board gaming…. “Wow! There are board games! Wow, board games are fun! We role playing gamers can play board games! We can import board games!” And then in 2004, Rebel Games starts, and they start as a web store, not as games. They were just an online store selling, selling, selling, role playing games. And there’s one mass market publisher who was doing some crappy board games, who sees something is happening. And they sign with FFG [Fantasy Flight Games].
Rebel Studios, initially a localizing publisher, is still huge today. They are the studio behind the very popular title Meadow, and have become the face of Asmodee Poland.
DTD: OK.
IT: And they bring Drakon to Poland. They bring Arena Maximus to Poland. They bring Cave Troll. All these Silver Line. You remember Silver Line?
DTD: Right, right. Yeah.
IT: So, there are three companies: Crazy Ignacy who started that. Rebel was [an] online store, and is importing these games for lots of money. And this Galakta who signed with FFG. And three of us…
DTD: Is this the same Galakta that’s still around? Yeah? Wow.
IT: And this is how it all started, and Galakta brought these amazing games from FFG. I was this crazy dude who had crazy ideas and conventions and “Hey guys, you can play this new stuff!” And Rebel, who was just importing these expensive but very amazing games. And it slowly, slowly starts.
DTD: Wow.
IT: And so when I go to the Convention these days in Poland. And I see these thousands of people playing board games, and I think to myself, “I did it. I was the first to throw this stone, and none of these people know about me.”
DTD: Well, yeah!
IT: None of the people know this story, but I know it was me who started it.
Come back next time for further historical ramblings by Master Trzewiczek on such subjects as creating board game conventions, playing current titles, and modern game design. And of course, food arrived. Mostly for me, because Ignacy barely eats.